Posted by Nicholas Stix
Nowhere in the entry "Shooting of Trayvon Martin," is Rachel Jeantel named; instead her identity is hidden behind "Witness 8," in order to leave readers in the dark. Various editors have repeatedly entered her name, only to have the thread Nazis censor it. And when the entry quotes Jeantel's testimony that Martin told her he was being followed by a "crazy-ass cracker," the latter statement is in a separate, one-sentence section, "Allegations against Martin."
On March 20, Martin family attorney, Benjamin Crump revealed that Martin had been on the phone with a friend moments before he was shot.[167][168] During an ABC News exclusive report, Crump allowed portions of his recorded interview with Martin's friend to be aired. She said that Martin told her that a man was watching him from his vehicle while talking on the phone before the man started following Martin. Martin told his friend at one point that he had lost the man but the man suddenly appeared again.[167][168][169] The friend said that she told Martin to run to the townhouse where he was staying with his father and the father's girlfriend.[168] She then heard Martin say, "What are you following me for?" followed by a man's voice responding, "What are you doing around here?" She said that she heard the sound of pushing before the phone went dead. She immediately attempted to call him back, but was unable to reach him.[170] Crump stated that he would turn the information over to the Justice Department because "the family does not trust the Sanford Police Department to have anything to do with the investigation."[167] Martin's friend was subsequently interviewed by state prosecutors on April 2, 2012. During her interview with the prosecutor, Martin's friend recounted her last phone call with Martin and added that Martin had described the man as "crazy and creepy," watching him from a vehicle while the man was talking on the phone.[168] Martin's friend told prosecutors that she heard words like "get off, get off," right before she lost contact with Martin.[168]
On March 6, 2013, prosecutors admitted that witness 8 had lied under oath, when she falsely testified that she had been in the hospital on the day of Martin's funeral.[171][172][173]
Crump had refused to disclose the identity of Witness 8, stating that she was only 16, a minor at the time of the shooting, and asked the media to respect her privacy.[174] It was subsequently revealed that she was actually 18 at the time when she said she was on the phone with Martin.[175] According to the defense, her actual age had been edited out of previously released disclosures.[176] Crump has denied intentionally giving any misleading statements about her age.[177]
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Allegations against Martin
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| This section appears to contain unverifiable speculation and unjustified claims. Information must be verifiable and based on reliable published sources. (July 2013) |
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| This section needs additional citations for verification. (July 2013) |
State's witness 8 testified that Martin had described Zimmerman as a "creepy ass cracker" just prior to the shooting. [309]
[N.S.: The most recent discussion—there are 15 sections of archives—from the "talk page," in which the Trayvonistas sandbag anyone trying to craft an honest entry, follows.]
blatant POV pushing and will not be tolerated[edit]
The fact that we have sworn testimony from witness 8/jeantel specifically indicating trayvon martin used a racial slur directed toward zimmerman is more relevant to wikipedia than 99% ofthe other speculative and fantasy racism found in the rest of the "allegation" of racism sections. If you can provide some evidence how anything else is even equally relevant in that entire section be my guest. As it is, it's nothing more than blatant political POV push trying to keep out the racist comments of Trayvon. 68.115.53.79 (talk) 06:37, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Witness #8, Rachel Jeantel, testified to what Martin said to her over the phone in a conversation the night of the shooting. She did not testify that it was an "alleged race issue" or that is was "allegations against Martin". To the contrary, she testified that words like "cracker" and "nigger" which Martin said, are not offensive to her. When questioned about it again on a recross exam, she testified again that people in her community refer to white people as "cracker", and use the word "nigger", and this is non-offensive normal behavior. Additionally, she stated that she didn't consider the term "cracker" to be racial and also testified that she didn't know if Martin used those words regularly. Her testimony never indicated or even implied that it was an "alleged race issue" nor did she testify that it was an "allegation against Martin".
I understand what you are trying to convey here, but you are not putting her testimony into the proper context. She is not the one who alleged the terms she said Martin used were racial. The defense team is the one that chose to pursue that line of questioning about whether the terms Martin used were racial. The defense team is the one who made the allegations against Martin, and her, for that matter. But she never wavered in her testimony that those terms were not offensive to her.
There have been many media outlets that have highlighted that portion of the defense's line of questioning, and her answer's, and offered their opinions on what it may or may not have meant.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 09:52, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
the fact she thinks that cracker is not racist and not offensive is not even remotely relevant. How many things do we delete on this wiki page because "george doesn't think so and so or say so and so, so we are just gonna delete it". SHE IS NOT TRAYVON MARTIN. She is also not part of "trayvon's community". You have supplied not a shred of an argument supporting non-inclusion. 68.115.53.79 (talk) 12:00, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
No. We are not going to add inflection or assert that which cannot be proven as "fact". At most, we would need third-party sources claiming that and we would have to cite it as "opinion" and provide context at minimum. The media is dramatic and biased for these issues; Wikipedia should not parrot such accusations blindly. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:03, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Correct me if I am wrong, but your logic for creating this sub-section with a single quote from Jeantel's testimony is that Martin made a racial comment, so therefore, it is an allegation against himself? I am not disputing that she testified to what Martin called Zimmerman, but she is not the one who alleged that the term Martin used to describe Zimmerman was a racial slur, defense attorney Don West did. Like I stated above, I get what you are trying to convey, but put it in the proper context. Here's what I believe you are trying to convey and is put in the proper context:
During the trial of Zimmerman, Rachel Jeantel testifed that while on the phone with Martin on the night of the shooting, Martin described Zimmerman as a "creepy ass cracker". On cross examination of Jeantel, defense attorney Don West questioned her about the term (cracker) Martin used to describe Zimmerman, alleging that it was a racial slur. Jeantel testified that she did not believe it was a racial slur and that it was not offensive to her.'
Your edit doesn't even say who made the allegation against Martin. You've created a sub-section titled Allegations against Martin, but you fail to provide the reader with who is making the allegation. You can't just insert one line out of her testimony without putting it in the proper context. If you want to create a sub-section about Allegations against Martin, then you need to clarify exactly who is making the allegation against him, and it certainly wasn't Rachel Jeantel making that allegation, it was Don West.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 15:18, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Coming into this late, but all of the sworn testimony in the trial refers to racial bias on part of Martin, not on the part of Zimmerman. I think its odd that the article only has subheadings regarding Zimmerman and the police. There should at least be a bullet about Martin given whats come out in court. 68.50.245.173 (talk) 22:06, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
jeantel made the allegation that trayvon called george a cracker, that's "the allegation". We don't know if martin ever said that, or if martin did say it if it was in a racist mindset. You can only tell the facts and let the reader discern what they think.04:48, 2 July 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.115.53.79 (talk)
When defense attorney West asked her - "You don't think that's a racial comment" - that is when the "allegation" was made (by West) that what Martin had said about Zimmerman (creepy ass cracker) was a racial comment. Jeantel didn't allege that Martin made a racial comment, West did, her answer to West' question was No. Then West repeated the question to her again and she again said no, she didn't think what Martin had said about Zimmerman was a racial comment. West also asked her - "You don't think calling someone a creepy ass cracker is offensive" - now West is making an "allegation" that what Martin had said about Zimmerman was offensive. Jeantel answered No to that question (allegation) as well.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 06:45, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
You seem really lost. As already said, what she THINKS is irrelevant. She is nothing more than a hearsay witness. She is not a telepathic. Nor are you. 68.115.53.79 (talk) 10:28, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
Correct. Neither are you. She repeated his words. Defense did not make an allegation (although they did make some implications towards that point). Allegations are made by reliable and notable commenters. If youw ant to include this content, find reliable sources, specifically making the allegation that this was racism or racial motivation. Taking the alleged hearsay fact of what martin said and saying that it is an allegation of racism is original research. Gaijin42 (talk) 13:18, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
@68.115.53.79 - If you believe that "what she THINKS is irrelevant", why are you arguing for inclusion of what she THINKS Martin said to her.
@Gaijin42 - Allegations can also be made by a defense attorney when they pursue a line of questioning about what a witness has testified to. West specifically asked Jeantel about racial issues, in response to her assertion that she thought it was racial because Martin had said a white man was following him. West seized upon that statement she made and then proceeded to ask her questions like: "It was racial because Trayvon put race in this?" - "You don't think that's a racial comment". Here are some sources discussing West's interaction with Jeantel.
And the defense really likes that "creepy-ass cracker" line that Martin delivered to his friend. West and his team have accused Jeantel in front of the cameras not so much of toning things down for the mother of dead 16-year-old as that Martin's slang somehow had some deeper meaning. The implication, in this transforming trial, has become that Trayvon Martin was the racist for calling George Zimmerman a "cracker,"...[5]
George Zimmerman's defense attorney insisted during several testy exchanges with an important prosecution witness Thursday that Trayvon Martin injected race into a confrontation with the neighborhood watch volunteer...[6]
Peterson suggested that line of questioning underscored racial subtleties of the case...[7]
I would argue that RS have alleged that West made "allegations against Martin" when he pursued that line of questioning. Use whatever term you wish in describing West' line of questioning - alleged, implied, asserted, contended - but there is no doubt that West interjected a racial component into his line of questioning concerning Martin.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 16:05, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
Asking a question about if someone else thinks something is racial, is not the same thing as saying that they themselves think it is racial. If/when they directly make that statement (closing?) that is making an allegation. If other notable/reliable sources are making that allegation, then it could be sourceable now. Zimmerman has directly been accused of being racist/acting in a racist manner. The SPD has directly been accused of being racist and acting in a racist manner. Thus far (within the context of the additions made to this article, and sources provided for that purpose) nobody has done so towards Martin. If such sources exist, then we can discuss adding it and attributing those allegations to them. Beyond that, the number of people making those allegations against Zimmerman/SPD is huge, compared to the one person (albeit highly relevant to the case) brought up here. The allegations are not apples to apples, and I would say they aren't even apples to oranges. They are apples to elephants. The alleged racism of Zimmerman and SPD has been directly linked to motive in their actions in the night. This linking has been made by multiple sources. To the degree that this issue has been raised against Martin, it is not a direct allegation (as stated before), and further it has not been linked to his actions in the night. Such a linking is fairly obvious, and plausible to make - but us making it is Original Research. Find someone else reliable who has done that for us, and attribute the allegations to them.Gaijin42 (talk) 16:15, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
I will defer to the original editor who inserted the information the task of finding reliable sources to support this being included in the article . My argument is that a single sentence cherry picked from Jeantel's testimony doesn't support an "allegation against Martin". Having said that, I do believe that if put in the proper context with reliable sources discussing this line of questioning, it is an allegation against Martin. The sources listed above all specifically mention defense attorney West and his line of questioning of Jeantel. I also believe that asking a question about if someone else thinks something is racial is an allegation against the person who said it, because the person asking the question would have to believe that it was racial in order to ask the question in the first place.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 18:38, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
On a personal level, i don't disagree. Im just saying it isn't sufficiently sourced to convert that inferred allegation to an acutal allegation, particularly when compared to the explicit nature of the other allegations in the section. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
What are you even talking about "sufficiently sourced". It's freakin sworn testimony. it doesn't get any more sufficiently sourced for an allegation.Whatzinaname (talk) 02:32, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Her sworn testimony is in fact a DENIAL of an allegation. She said it wasn't racist. Gaijin42 (talk) 02:39, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
For the umpteenth time already HER OPINION IS IRRELEVANT. It's not Trayvon's opinion. Even if trayvon would still be alive today and have said "it wasn't meant to be racist", the most you could do is say "he claims his words were not racist"etc. It's all further irrelevant by the fact the section is called "racial allegations", not racist allegation. So I can pull my lawyer notebook out and underline the fact that the section only is for "racial allegations" . not "racism allegations" cracker is clearly a racial epithet, whether racist of intent or not, hence would qualify.Whatzinaname (talk) 05:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
2 comments:
This brings back memories of the OJ trial when Furman was accused to using the n word years before, that allegation was splashed over the front pages in a massive furor. Note this "cracker" comment isn't being put on the front pages, if it's mentioned at all it's buried in the back pages. I think we all know why. Jerry
The Wiki thread talk brings back memories of Clinton's parsing of the word "is".
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